I know there's a lot of . . . well bullshit going on with some of the "families" that have sprung up recently. But I'd rather not have everyone tarred with the same brush - I believe that Maz'ainar, for one, can follow the fine tradition of families like the Longs and Cantors in honesty, fairness, and honor.
I appreciate that the leadership of the Brotherhood has had difficulty with some families' honesty - notably Tang'va's bunch, as exeplified in the recent Justicar's ruling. But I urge thoughtfulness, rather than hasty assumptions based on the actions of some.
Respectfully,

JH Ma'arkhan Krayt'yr Maz'ainar

What he meant is that he does not want new people to go and create families out of the blue. All other families we have until now have kinda grown over time. So those aren't an issue. It's an issue when newbies declare they are creating families and mass recruit, and thus would render Clans pointless over time.

Yeah -- What Arania said...:)

I didn't mean to over-generalize...but what Arania said was exactly what I meant.

I see families like this basically a "family" is simply a group of members who over a period of months and in many cases years have grown to be great friends. As such they want a way for everyone to know that, so they pick a name and everyone adds it to their name as a form of recognition. Making a family just to extend your ID line or whatever just kind of cheapens it. Families like anything else can be great as long as it is kept in moderation.

But that is just my opinion I could be wrong.

Familes? Pffft! You guys missed the important part! Fleshy is working with Jac! Fleshy is working with Jac! Yaaay! :P

-Flechers

Pfft, who cares... Jac has a girlfriend :( All the cuties are taken :( lol

Well I'm glad someone finally said it, as this whole Family thing has been grinding on a nerve with me for months now. And note the term, months, not weeks due to this Tang'va thing, I've disliked Families for months before they even existed.

I feel as if the entire emphasis I based my whole career as a Consul on has been forgotten, I campaigned for over a year to make Clans more important, now it seems that six months after I move on from Consul suddenly theres a swarm of Families trying to usurp the positions of Clans.

Clan Naga Sadow has always taken some pride in having as close as none of these families present in it. Why? Simple. It doesn't need them. The sheer existance of Families represents a problem, that problem being a lack of Clan loyalty and spirit.

Why has Clan Naga Sadow never needed families? Because it is a Clan its members can feel proud to be in. It is a family. Look at our chosen Clan Title "Son of Sadow". That is the same in many Clans... SON. Think about the meaning of that word for a second. Surprisingly enough, although perhaps not if you have already gotten the point, Clan Naga Sadow has used that term for years, for all its brethren have been Sons of Sadow.

Clan Naga Sadow is a family.

Perhaps the next argument for Families is that a Clan is too big an establishment for people to feel a close friendship or bond in. That is valid, so why not make use of the officialised structures known as Battleteams. Again, using my days as a Consul, and furthermore as a Quaestor, for example, the Squadrons in House Ludo Kressh forged stronger "family ties" than any of these Families I see wandering about have ever dreamed of.

Just go and ask any member who was a part of Sapphire Squadron during the days of Commander Bob-Fett. If you think what you call a family has its social benefits then you've got a whole lot more to learn about what a normal Squadron can achieve. I'm quite sure that Consul Malik Sadow could fill you in on what Sapphire used to be like, and I assure you now that it far outdid any of these so called families.

Now maybe you're thinking even a battleteam is too big? Fine again, then we have the Master to Student relationships that stretch beyond the bonds of the structural system of the Houses or Clans. Or perhaps you prefer the secrecy of it all? Well, I still consider myself the student of Adept Trevarus Irad Caerick Sadow, perhaps not the most loyal of students, but then after a time most learn to dislike their Masters, just look at Darth Malak and Darth Revan, I suppose the relationship our two characters have is similar to that. Now there is nothing stopping you having an elongated Master Student relationship, I'm sure people like Arania have achieved this as I know for a fact that she has a number of Students, so I'm wagering a guess that she has achieved the same as these 'families' but with a system that seems more appropriate as again, I hazard another educated guess, that she keeps it constructive and within Clan, or as near to that as practically possible, so that she is not only strengthening a social relationship in the family sense but also strengthening the Clan bonds.

Now, families are ok, but as the Deputy Grand Master and others have said: in moderation. Golden Lightsabers are ok, so long as they're in moderation after all. The main fear I have is that people are treating families as the first step to activity, friendships and promotions.

My greatest fear is that people then have the indecency to accuse the Clans of struggling and not providing. I was a Consul for over a year, and I assure you now that the problem is not that the Clans don't provide, but that people do not make advantage of what is offered. You can get all that a family can give you out of your Clan, your House, your Battleteam and more. What can a family get you? Nothing more, actually it gets you less for it can't officially reward your work, for family leaders cannot promote, or give you medals, or anything else. What else does a family do? It actually hurts your Clan. For by spending time with your family, time you could spend with your Battleteam, you are weakening your Clan, for that energy could be spent making your Clan better.

Take it from a Consul Emeritus who spent a year rebuilding a broken Clan. There is nothing better, not only for the Clan but for its members too, than a Clan that believes in itself and has a strength of unity and pride. Rather than run away from the problems, rather than look for new solutions in these Families, try going back to the source, to your Clan, and helping it. You'll thank yourself later when your Clan regains the spirit it was meant to have.

In all my time as Consul I tried everything to make the Clan active, but let me tell you the one thing that worked: encouragement. There is only one thing that makes people active around here, and that is to make them think that they're in a good place. You might think that your Clan isn't giving you what you need, but start believing in it and it will give you everything you've ever expected.

~ His Excellency, the High Warrior

OMG Goat.. you not only missed the main point of families and similar stuff, you also wrote a post that would have been too long for the MB, not to talk fo comments lol

I agree completely with Jac and Goatham. Clans ARE your families, especially for new members. I know we foster this feeling as much as possible in Taldryan, and I'm sure they do in other Clans as well.

CON Kir Taldrya Katarn - Clan Taldryan

Jac and Goat are right: Clans are your family and that is where your loyalities should lay. I am very loyal to the Keepers of the Night and to Tarentum. And I do feel as though they are my family. But I can also say that I would be loyal, not as much as I am to KotN or Tar, to my family. There is no reasion that someone cant be loyal to more than one thing and if the way you joined into a family is from making good friends with the other members or from being written in as a member some how then I see nothing wrong with it.

Now however if you join into a family and feel that they are where it is and try to upset the balance of your clan than someone should hit you upside the head with Yacks, Mav, and BF :P.

Wwell said Dranik.

Goat still missed the point tho, hehe.

I wanted to add something, as I am one of those guilty of initiating a new family.

I think it all depends on the intent and maturity under which the family is created. Starting a family for the sake of having people with the same last name running around is pointless. There should be something more to it.

Now, this is going to be me tooting my own horn a bit, but there's really no way to avoid it and still make my point: initiation in my "family" (and I use the term loosely) has prerequisites that demand Clan-oriented activity.

Membership is voluntary, not recruited. I wanted my family to be cool and as well be something that one's character can develop from. Thus I sought a theme, and I picked "architects." Mine is akin to masons; more a guild than a "family." Members are required to be a member of Clan Arcona, as I have always been, and as well they must design and do a write-up on a small facility/monument/structure for use by the Clan.

My hope is that, when times arise for other, major construction projects come about for Arcona, my family of architrects can pitch-in and create something as a team effort.

The question should be: In what specific way is this family making the DB better, without supplanting the purpose of Houses and/or Clans? Maybe families created by non-veteran members should be limited only to the Clans in which they're created, and then only if they are beneficial in some aspect.

Just my thoughts.

I'm in agreance with Kir. Taldryan has been my family ever since I started in the DB (minus that scary week in Arcona :P) and I've always held to that. But, a short time ago a few of us from Dinaari decided to make our own little family - The Pimps. We're probably the least known cuz we don't go out recruiting or making personal websites and all that crap some families are known for we're just a bunch of guys in the same clan + a girl... who have been hanging out together on IRC for 3 yearish.

We are all insanely pro-Taldryan and being in that family as well, but why can't we have a special little group as well? I think from now on you shouldn't be able to start a family without a good reason - maybe have the CoJ guy approve them, otherwise we will just have more overzealous noobs copying the oldy/semi-oldy members who have put some effort into making friends and helping their clan first.

Actually I believe it is you who has missed the point of my post, Arania, for I fully understand why these families exist.

Answer me this: why do these social groups exist?

You're clearly saying that families exist as social structures, thats all well and good in such cases as the Entars and the Cantors, pretty old establishments these days, especially the Cantors, which really did arise from strongly built friendships.

Compare that to Families that go out recruiting for membership. Look out the window, do you see people walking down the street going "I need a friend!". Hardly. If you see that you keep as far away from the person as possible, that is why Families have lost their way.

Why then do these socail groups exist? The fact they go out looking to find members to recruit clearly implies that they are having problems focusing on their core social area- their Clan. In older families such as the Cantors this might be forgiven, but in younger ones it is completely unnecessary.

Let me put it an even simpler way: for an Acolyte to be a member of a Family it shows we have a serious problem. If an Acolyte truly has friends, alright, thats acceptable, but how many times is that the case, or rather, how many times have they been recruited into one by the mass marketing of these families?

An Acolyte is a very young member, usually young in age as well these days, an they are also very impressionable regardless of age. We should be working to build their bonds to their Clan community, not to some non existant Family entity. They should make friends within their Clan, not every random passer by who strolls through #db on a daily basis who they then think "Cool! Lets start a family!". Thats wrong. They should start to become closer friends with their Squadron, their Brigade or their Phyle. Just because their Squadron members may not go in #db daily doesn't mean they should go and make a Family, it means they should try the Message Boards, or Email, or their Squadrons Mailing List, or whatever it might be.

Those are the bonds we should encourage, not these random, rag-tag ties that form and deform within Families on an almost daily basis.

Now, I'm not saying I don't like Families. They're a neat invention. But, I prefer Families such as the Longs, the Cantors, and- though you'd prefer not to be labelled a "Family"- the Aquillarums. I prefer them because they are a public sign of the unity and friendship between members who have been in this club for years, and usually are not all that easy to 'get into'.

That term alone is wrong 'get into' a family. You don't 'get into' a friendship. You become friends. Its wrong to go looking for a family to join, it just... defeats their purpose. In that sense, I do not inherently dislike Families, I dislike what they have and are becoming, for they are losing their purpose and going the wrong way.

Again, I do not inherently dislike the idea of an Acolyte being a part of a Family. But why should they be? Surely they should be too enthralled in the joy of joining a Phyle when they first join to not need to seek further social interaction beyond the realm of their Battleteam? Further still surely not beyond their House or Clan.

I hardly knew my Clan when I first joined, heck, I barely knew my House to begin with, as my Battleteam alone was a thriving heart of all the activity I needed. I certainly didn't need to go searching on #db for any random folk from other Clans who happened to walk by and wanting to set up a new unofficial unit to sound more important than I was.

Looking at the Rokirs, I can't say I'm against you guys either. If you're centred to Clan Arcona and fulfill something of a fictional purpose to your Clan then that seems fitting. You're not hurting activity, put it that way, so I have nothing against such a group.

Vassan's point is probably the most important though, those who lead families really need the maturity to do it. Families hold the potential to cause as much damage to the members within the Family as do members within a Clan that has a screwy Consul. The members of the Family potentially can be as loyal to it as their Clan, or even the Brotherhood itself, so without the leader of the Family being reliable it means that any Family could potentially cause serious harm.

At the end of the day, that is why I dislike them, their potential to do harm, and as I have said before, the way many of them have been going down the wrong road. In principle they are acceptable, but when people abuse the privaledge of an unmonitored or controlled system then it starts to leave an imprint that demands attention of people such as myself.

Looking back to the Sapphire Squadron example. Had all the members of Sapphire wanted to change their names to have a common surname I'd have thought it a great idea. But the point is: they didn't need to. They could say they were members of Sapphire Squadron, they didn't need to suddenly give themselves a common name, it wasn't necessary. The bond was already there.

A family, as I presume you take it Arania, is a social bond. Thats fine. But that alone is fine. Most of the time I would strongly question why you need it to be a public declaration? I have friends in this club, but we don't feel the need to go and think up some catchy name and shove it in peoples faces who we are friends with. That is why it really is a fine line, as they can be nice ways to reinforce socail bonds, but they can also be abused.

Friendships as friendships are fine. When friends start recruiting that is when the problems begin.

I stress the word recruiting. As being a Consul Emeritus let me let you all in on another of my pet hates. Recruiting. I despise it, and I have good reason to as when I was a Quaestor I lost half my House because one member got offered an Aedile spot in another Clan and immediately half the House left to follow him.

Now, to the leaders among you, even the members of Families among you, picture that happening to your Clan, your House, your Battleteam. Suddenly a Family leader gets a Quaestor position... then we have problems, for if they're not mature enough with their family, or at least havn't been in the past, suddenly all their Family members from around the Brotherhood go to join that Clan. That seriously hurts other Clans. It also has a knock on effect, with those Family member friends going with them, so other Clans are further hurt.

Try and tell me it won't happen. But a little lesson in history will assure you that it will. For I've seen it a number of times, and that is just myself alone.

That is why Families, as nice as they are, and no, I'm not missing the point of them, are a problem. I fully understand the benefits, but we have to look at the negatives, for in the wrong hands they are a serious problem.

Call me Devils Advocate if you will. I just like pointing out the problems is all... you'll thank me one day.

wow you people talk too much... but lemme just throw in some wisdom here as the patriarch of the oldest DB Family...

The reason why the Cantors have been so stable over all the years is because The Cantor Family has NOTHING to do with the DB. We don't place restrictions on members due to where they came from in the DB or what, and we don't act as a family within the DB, our family interactions take place in our own channel outside of the DB's range of actions.
Look at some of the original members and the clans we were in then... me (Aquillas), Darkfire (csk), Tronsta (csk), Mazzic (csp or tar... prolly tar, he was a taubum)... we built our family off friendships formed WITHIN the Brotherhood, and please note, while I'm the only one on that list still active in the DB, we're all still friends. You guys see 6 Cantors on the roster, 5 of which happen to be on the DC (hey, greatness attracts greatness :P)... what you don't see is the other 15 or so members of the House of Cantor who are not enrolled in the DB.

The problem we HAVE with families here is people trying to link them to the DB directly, THAT is what is causing problems. My family in the Brotherhood is Taldryan, I show it in my name, my family OUTSIDE of the Brotherhood is Cantor.

-Keirdagh Taldrya Cantor

Goat, you want me to read all this? Ugh :o)

Actually, there are many different definition of families. Yacks gave one. Vassan gave one. Then we have some who simply pretend to be brother and sister, which is the "real" family thing, and those usually don't expand, save maybe a member every year or so. Among those, there are often APPs who join together and know each other in RL or from other clubs. Nothing wrong with it. Then there's us, and the Aquillarums base it on RPG/character reasons. There would be Aquillarums in the 'other' DB if not that the name change was denied as 'rDBish.' We even have some who practically belong among us and yet don't want to adapt the name, which fits their character development fine.

I don't consider people running around suddenly recruiting for something a "family." A family has to grow. A family isn't about who has most members. Heck, a family doesn't even need a family "head" and I don't know what gave anyone that idea. There's no head with the Aquillarums, unless you consider the Ar triplet head... which wouldn't be accurate.

Ack, I stop now before I get Goatism... and this should prolly be moved to the MB sigh

Maz'ainar is all either Mystics or former Mystics.

Who's the 3rd Ar?

Arion

The difference though, Arania, is what a family should be about and what they are becoming are entirely different things. In theory they should be like Yacko described, not only for the Cantors were the first ever Family, at least to my knowledge, so he has first say on all Family issues as far as I'm concerned.

The problem though is that, as much as you can say Families are meant to be about this, that and whatever else, and that it is all meant to be good and happy, many are not. This is no fault of the Families that are doing it alright in their own way, no, but its a fault thats quickly being recognised.

At the end of the day, I don't care what the actual purpose of Families was, but what the purpose of them is. Now the older and established ones may still work on the was, but the ones coming about in recent days are more a matter of is, and far more centralised around the core of the Dark Brotherhood, rather than being something external. As a result, if people want them to be something tied into the Dark Brotherhood, rather than an external friendship thing, then its getting to the stage where they are going to need to be controlled.

Do I like control? Do I like bureaucracy? No.

But likewise, do I like the threat of something potentially destabilising the Clans? No.

Its not so much a case of what I want to see happen, but what I feel must happen.