Fantastic update! Thanks for the juicy info, can't wait for the paths to be fully implemented :D

Excellent report, mate. Thanks once again for the assist in grading. :D

So much delicious info! More! MORE!

I may be a bit biased here but yes, I am absolutely wonderful to work with.

Amazing! Can't wait for the new changes and I'm very happy to see the traditions giving credit to the orders of old.

Awesome report Mav! Thanks for the updates. Love the Traditions, and that it highlights how lame Krath are!

#Obbie4lyfe

Very excited for traditions and the new paths. Thanks for the updated info and hard work, Mav! And for helping Alora, Vyr and I with those final results.

Glares at Marick The urge to resume former Obbie hate rises!

Great report, exciting news and i cant wait to see how this will impact the DJB!

So excited for traditions #guardian4life

Awesome update. I've been salivating over the idea of traditions, personally. I'm hoping there's a Jensaarai one available.

Regarding your question on Paths, I would have definitely chosen Gray had it been an option at the time.

Belated, Mavvles: I came in to the Dark Jedi Brotherhood very reluctantly when I was recruited because I wanted to be a Jedi. Assuming I couldn't have been a lightie back then in Arcona either, I would have taken the Gray Path.

Also, can we please make sure it is "Gray" path, as "Grey" path keeps getting thrown around and it's not the correct spelling in the Star Wars universe...

I'd have joined as a Sith, even with my present char. Not so sure how darkity dark Andrel is these days, however.

Awesome update. I am glad to hear more about the different paths coming and very happy that the traditions are there so the older members get a proper credit. As to your question about paths, considering how my character is playing out I would say she would more than likely take the Grey path.

Did you want comments on a Grey, Gray, Gris, Grigio... path here? Personally, Calindra is "grey" because I like characters that walk the edge... they are good, and conflicted. Or they are bad, and conflicted... but it's more of a personal conflict in my opinion rather than a sort of Jensaraai tradition. I just don't see her being a goody two-shoe... but she hasn't been corrupted to the point where she hates the world. So far, having chosen the Dark Path upon creation, I don't feel like the 3rd choice would have mattered to me seeing as it's the struggle between dark and light within her that I like.

Hopefully that makes sense. :)

Oh.. stupid question but: TL;DR ???

I vote for "grey" over "gray". Of course I still wield a lightsabre, so most ignore me.

Calindra, TL;DR Means "Too Long; Didn't Read" so it's just an overview of what's in the report for hte people who can't be bothered to read all of it.

hi Calindra, this is the perfect place to weigh in, thanks!

As to grey versus gray, it is a small matter and one we'll figure out before final release. Thanks for pointing out the canon. :)

Terran: There are rough plans for that Tradition. One of the goals of this system was to make it open ended enough that, in canon fiction, Mav might think the Jensaarai were just some stupid myth, because the legends canon may not exist any longer to most of us. that doesn't mean that Terran himself couldn't, say, truly believe that the group was real, of course, but unless the canon introduces them there'd be no evidence of it. However, just as in present day, legends can build into traditions and belief systems.. that's my goal with Traditions, anyway. More on that soon.

Too long; didn't read!! Ahh!! I read it all, and then I saw that and read that too... so there must be an award for that somewhere. Hehe... ^.^

I totally would have been light coming into the djb at the start. The only reason I gave the djb a chance over the other light side clubs on BSC is because of all the fiction platforms available here. No doubt about it the name dark jedi brotherhood is going to be confusing with the options we are coming up with here but had these options been available when I joined it would have been 1. Light 2. Gray 3. Dark

Great report Mav!

Great report and I know for an instant if I had the chance when I first joined 7 years ago I would have chosen the grey path and I still will. This will be an interesting concept to bring in to the DJB and see how it effects the members and the fiction writing.

RE: Traditions, I love Mav's thoughts about how stuff like Jensaari could exist as legends in the canonverse, that's a really nice approach.

As for joining grey or dark had it been available? Tough one.. if I was joining today? Probably grey, but.. I'm a lot older now. But back when I was 13, I probably had this idealised idea of being Darth Vader, so.. I suspect back in 1999 I'd have still gone dark, albeit today I tend more toward more conflicted characters than pure black and white archetypes..

I guess it also slightly depends as well on quite what the "Dark Path" will NOT encompass under the new three path system, as I hate the cartoon Sith villains in TOR, and.. still often see "dark" as itself being fairly broad (read: lots of evil guys are quite calm and collected), so which I picked would probably have depended on how the grey path chose to square the Vergere-circle of "what" the Dark Side was.. but then Potentium debates are a neverending dilemma :P

I chose the Dark Side for a reason: not only did I idealize Darth Vader as a child/watching the movies, but I have always had a fondness for the good/great movie villains. I was never interested in any of the X-Men as heroes; but Magneto was an astounding villain in the comics, with a lot of depth to the character. To me, most of the heroes are really bland, boring, almost whiny characters (like Luke complaining about wanting to go get some power converters). And yet, a great many villains do not have that depth. Someone wronged them, and except for a misalignment of the stars, they'd have remained good, but misfortune caused them to become "evil." How many villains CHOSE the Dark? How many villains wilfully seek evil because they want to watch the world burn?

That being said, it IS a lot easier to be Grey. There's perhaps more of a wealth of exploring the character as opposed to "really good," or maybe even "really evil." I can see a great many people choosing Grey when this option becomes available, but there might be some new "FotM" spice to it, as well. So many more people in the Star Wars universe are likely Grey than either end of the alignment spectrum, that it makes sense to have a lot of Grey members. Even many "villains" might be a more middle ground character that is walking a darker path for the greater good, because "the right way" never yields results. Or... does that line of thinking lead to fanaticism and terrorism?

On an unrelated, or semi-related, several years ago, there was an initiative to promote "the Star Wars Alliance," a group of Clubs working together, pooling resources and such for the mutual benefit of each Club, its members, and perhaps replacing what had been one of the assets of the EH. Obviously, things change, times progress, situations adapt. For the time being, though, we ARE the Dark Jedi Brotherhood. Are we basically leading up to the DARK Brotherhood becoming the "Star Wars Brotherhood," and trying to become a massive catch-all Club, or would this be another reason to venture out with other Clubs and create an alliance again in the same spirit of community? I just feel like, there's little viable reason, fictionally, for Jedi and Sith to co-exist, and every reason to play up the natural animosity to create another system of competition that stresses Light vs. Dark.

I think there is more potential for creative ideas if you play either Dark or Light, when you decide not to bite down completely on either side's propoganda. The conflict within a lightside Jedi who's not entirely conviced that he / she should go all saintly, is just as important and as dynamic as a Dark Sider who can still be redeemed. It's the dance between shadow and light that is important.

I think creating a purely grey path would dilute this potential for an inner conflict, and reduce creativity. I'm afraid we'll see less interesting role playing... (I could be wrong). Also, I think we'd get more RP out of branching out with less Force concepts and adding more careers into the mix. Ace Pilots, Ground divisions, Intelligence Officers, Scoundrels, Medical Units, etc, etc. It would give our characters some interesting challenges, moving from a purely Force User angle towards multiple situations that are very different: a flight deck's feel is entirely different than that of a battle zone. A medic corp, would probably be on the front lines, but he's looking to patch people, not decimate them.

It would help focus our characters a bit in my opinion, give them a little something extra.

Heck, imagine a Darksider Medic Corp who uses lightside skills to treat Sith... conflict!!!!!!!!! But rich...!!

I disagree, Calindra, respectfully.

Star Wars has always been, at its core, about the conflict between Light and Dark. Good and Evil. As with religion (which, "Sith" and "Jedi" are ultimately two interpretations of a monotheistic religion called "The Force") there are an infinite amount of ways that a person can choose to follow a belief. For example, the Dothamari Witches (from the Clone Wars Cartoons) don't seem inherently evil or good. They simply act according to their machinations. Their view on the "Force" is their own. It makes them unique.

The same way that people can believe in religion (the Force) but not fall into "Jedi" or "Sith" is important to members. I don't think this dilutes creativity in the slightest, but encourages it. I have played my character (for years) to mirror my real-life views on religion (Agnostic). My character is the definition of a "grey" Jedi in that he simply sees the Force a tool that is neither good nor evil, and that both the Jedi and Sith have too many flaws and loopholes to be wholly dedicated to them.

If I was joining now, I'd want a grey-side option. Back 4-5 years ago when I signed up? I don't know, I was in a different place mentally at 20 years old :P.

Exactly my point, Marick, but I disagree that you need a grey scale to inlcude those different facets. If anything, just expand the Rogue side of the Brotherhood.

I also think a pure grey side isn't having enough skin in the game is all. It's not commital, non-confrontational. You need a conflict between the two for things to get interesting, and adding that extra category might bring more people with less dynamic / interesting characters. I'm afraid we'll create a "true neutral" cast. No one is ever competely neutral, it's unrealistic.

This whole discussion about dark, light, neutral is just a big huge personal lense. It's how characters look at the world.

It just so happens I'm working for the Imperials. How does my view of the world (light / dark / neutral) affect my choices within the organization I serve..? Neutrality should be character driven, not environment driven. If I'm asked to fight pirates, I have much less trouble being merciless... Faced with having to destroy a small colony who had the audacity of settling on Imperial land... I might have a harder time letting my character of the necessity of irradicating the colony. I don't think for a minute I'd be neutral.

My point is that we shouldn't be diluting our camps into neutral ones. As writers, we shouldn't be sitting on fences as that doesn't reallllly drive a story. What makes a story is that one choses a side, not sit on the sidelines. It might mean ai disobey my commanding officers, and it's going to add that much more creative writing potential later.

Yummy!

Great report

Gray or Grey? Really???? Gray is a color shade, Grey is a name. Nuff said

As for previous poster about x-men heroes being bland, um hello, wolverine is the badest sonofabitch and is a hero. He is the ultimate definition of what gray should be. He looks out for his friends and people needing help,but also has no qualms about ripping a person a new arse.

As for me if the choice was available, I'd still would have been sith. Darth Vader had always been my favorite and was the best bad guy ever. Everyone loves the good guy, but the bad guy was always my favorite. I would still remain sith abd dark side proponent

Although I like the idea of the Grey Path, I suppose Calindra that your dilemma is similar to the point I made about how the question is perhaps less "What defines the Grey Path?" as that's fairly simile, and more what is not a part of the pure paths, given even Darth Vader had good in him, yadda, yadda, etc, etc.

I'm sure Vader, though, shows you can still roleplay those sort of internal doubts and tensions; the change would just be that if you embrace the Grey Path you are actively acknowledging your, erm, "inner greyness", rather than constantly fighting a war inside yourself the way someone like Vader did.

Back when I was introduced to the Brotherhood, I was reluctant to join until the light-side path was available to follow. Back then, I was concerned about the restrictive and rigid nature of the Brotherhood and only created an account the moment Odan-Urr was opened. I'm glad to see this is expanding further still for those members who wish to follow neither of the current two paths, or even those who wish to not use Force powers.

Personally I think you should not be allowed to pick the Grey Jedi path at start. I feel like you should have to work for it, maybe make it a perk for when you reach JK/DJK

Daedric, that actually reminds me of the idea that was tooted waaaaay back in like 2006, albeit the creaky old website couldn't do it, where back then there was the thought of APPs not joining an Order until like GRD or something, and being a Sith/Krath/Obbie itself a reward of sorts for finishing the SA and such.

I think the biggest problem about the dark/gray/light dynamic is the misconception that exists as to what both dark and light actually are in Star Wars. This has been further entrenched by what others have pointed to earlier in this comment threat about the "cartoon" villains in TOR, the latest of a long line of "dark = evil asshat" morality systems. The "dark side" doesn't have to be Snidely Whiplash, mustache twirling villainy any more than the light side has to be Dudley Do-Right going off to save Nell. Often times the dark path has been pigeon holed into being the side where you will go out of your way to kick a puppy just to kick a puppy. Yeah, some people in the dark might be that person, but most wouldn't be. Dark and light are both more nuanced than that, and it makes me sad when I see people assuming that anything in between those extremes must be gray.

I seem to recall reading in some report or another talking about going grey but retaining selfish motivations, the idea that they'd still do whatever it takes to achieve whatever goal. The problem with that is that light and dark in Star Wars aren't just about what you do, they're about why you do. We've all heard for years in various works of Star Wars. The Jensaarai (High five, Invictus!) are a perfect example of this. They were taught by Sith, many of their traditions were based on evil things, but they themselves weren't "dark" because they were an order dedicated to the protection of others. There were people that were still light of alignment who were "Gray Jedi" (I'm looking at you, Qui-gon). Jolee Bindo was a Gray Jedi through and through, but that didn't stop him from being light of alignment and having strong opinions about why the Sith sucked eggs.

But, as I said earlier, I am a sad not-panda when I see "complex character with inner conflicts that isn't thoughtlessly evil" being characterized as gray of alignment. Dark alignment isn't unabashed devotion to puppy kicking and baby killing. Evil doesn't have to be Stalin, engaging in purges to kill massive portions of society because they looked at you funny (including meteorologists who failed to accurately predict the weather in the 1930's). Evil can just as easily be Vladimir Putin doing what he thinks is right for his people and other ethnic Russians, boundaries of sovereign nations be damned. (Though I feel free to revise my opinion on Vladdy if he goes off the deep end at a later date.) Are you a selfish character who will do "whatever it takes" to achieve a goal? Congrats, you're dark of alignment:

From Wookiepeedia: The dark side was seen as having been used for selfish purposes, although many darksiders who were accused of such selfishness claimed that the dark side was simply a means to achieve an end. One of the most notable examples was Anakin Skywalker, a Jedi who embraced the dark side with the intentions of saving his wife after seeing her die in a vision, even at the expense of the Jedi Order.

The definition of "whatever it takes" of course differs from character to character. You might draw the line at a massacre of a village but not at a death here or there. Still dark. :P "Dark" and "light" both contain spectrum within themselves, they're not points that are at the "extreme" end of the spectrum. My character is dark, and will be dark. Not because she is motivated to go around killing people for "funsies", but because she's going to do for herself and if anyone else gets screwed over (or dead) on her way to getting hers, well that's too bad for them. I think it's important that we as an organization make both dark and light more than extremes of all black or all white. Dark needs to be more than rabid, thoughtless evil. If we don't, there's really going to be next to nobody that wants to actually align "dark" or "light", and everyone and, more importantly, every unit will end up aligning gray. All three alignments should offer equally divided portions of the canvas from a club health and functionality perspective, gray should not get to lay claim to everything that isn't at the very edge.

If you want to play Jolee Bindo and really have a character balanced on the knife edge, you should be gray. If you want to play a character that is being pulled to the dark end of the spectrum that's resisting the fall, be gray. But, if you're not playing a character who's genuinely trying to maintain neutrality, nut up and call yourself what you are: dark. Admit that the dark alignment is more than Hitler, Stalin, or Mao. Admit that "evil" can come in many different shades of dark, and that a character motivated by self advancement and selfishness doesn't have to execute subordinates willy-nilly to be dark. Dark isn't one shade, it's many.

#darkiscomplicated

Well said, Selika! <3

My point is that we shouldn't be diluting our camps into neutral ones. As writers, we shouldn't be sitting on fences as that doesn't reallllly drive a story. What makes a story is that one choses a side, not sit on the sidelines. It might mean ai disobey my commanding officers, and it's going to add that much more creative writing potential later.

As writers, we should be able to write from any angle we want, and still make it intetesting. Taking a neutral path is not nomcommital, it is just saying "the black and white option don't work for me, so I'll make my own path". Simple as that.

"Taking a neutral path is not nomcommital, it is just saying "the black and white option don't work for me, so I'll make my own path". Simple as that."

I'll just agree to disagree with you there.

The interesting thing this discussion is highlighting is how the Grey Path, assuming it's treated as True Neutral, is actually quite unique in its own way compared to most people. I mean, you have your Darth Mauls were are darkety dark, and your Yoda's who are holier than thou, and then your Cade's who ultimately probably count as Light and are just struggling to stay it, but True Neutrals.. are actually pretty rare. (I suppose because in the EU most who tried to do it ended up falling to the dark side for story purposes?)

Dark and light are both more nuanced than that, and it makes me sad when I see people assuming that anything in between those extremes must be gray.

Amen brother! (and a big amen! to Goat as well) People shouldn't be afraid of the dark or light path due to the Snidely Whiplash or self-righteous space Buddhists stereotypes on either side. Embrace it!

#lightiscomplicatedtoo #lightiepride

I think the problem we see arising from stories in the Science Fictional world is that too much we see movie directors, writers, episodic producers making these 'Erase mankind' persona's who unfortunately have this polluted past and thus have been strung into a whirlwind of complications, post-traumatic outbursts and pre-meditated plans that can only be labelled as 'terrorism'. With the innocent and the, quoting Goat here, Holier Than Thou types, they haven't necessarily seen this scenario of how their career or life could turn into the worst case scenario. Most good guys are quite innocent and 'virgin' to life-changing stories. However when you take in a terrific and badass character who just enjoys destroying the oppressive, racist and fascist organisations like the Imperial Empire, then you gather these Heroes have also been through terrible times. They used to be good, they used to save lives and protect the innocent and uphold a higher standard of what a soldier or guardian should be, but their alignment has actually changed. They no longer care for a human life if it has the purpose to kill, and you see this in some dark beings who mostly remove a life because its for the greater good, like Darth Revan. To them it is no longer good enough to protect their society, but destroying them and starting afresh seems applicable. We see this in contemporary media now, bad guys who think their way of achieving their objectives are the best way to complete them and better society. The good guy who is innocent and virgin to these methods does not understand the villain is going through rough times, and labels them as 'evil'. Any one of these archetypes can be called Neutral, simply because they're neither good nor evil, but doing things for the best of their society. Relating to another sci-fi, a certain intergalactic fleet who uphold regulations and rules, with something called the Prime Directive, have strong values like this because they have seen the worst of what war, famine and death can do in the masses. They create and enforce these laws as subjectively as they can in order to not cast a reputation with certain people, like a certain warrior race who idolise war in this universe.

In my perspective it takes a very broken, very drained and betrayed person to become neutral, you're never truly making that choice as a young and chipper Jedi fresh from the academy because of your ambitions in life. In any case it's not down to anyone else but the writers of how you want to define your neutrality, it's entirely up to you as a writer to deliver that experienced background and show us what it means to be neutral in your eyes.

Marick has worked hard in creating his character to travel along this edge, i'm a firm believer that he knows what it takes other wise his fiction of Marick would not be as good as it is. You'd have to look at every single light-sided Jedi in each individual Clan, assess why they stay and detract the reasons of why they serve a dark-side summit whilst retaining their philosophy. I just believe that sometimes it is not about what your heart says, but what your conscious tells you is logical in order to survive, as survival is what it always boils down to.

Yeah, it's amazing how... diverse different characters can get. I was just thinking about the Jedi Covenant in the KOTOR comics (buy them, read them, enjoy them </shameless plug>) and... I don't know how I'd define them. They sure behave like darksiders, and anybody else would call them utterlu ^%$ed up, but in their own heads, they're as light as light gets, holy and divine, strut around all in white, and believe your murder is for the greater good...

I always love how at the extreme end of being good it ends up completing the circle and being just as bad as the people they hate. (It's one of the things I'm most curious about with the sequels, as Lucas himself had started getting more natural Yin/Yang/Balancey in the stranger metaphysical Clone Wars episodes.)

Well, this comment count escalated quickly.

Throwing my own two cents in... I've never really had a hard time picturing Yacks as a Dark side character, nor a grey character. He's a good example of the nuanced dark that Selika was talking about in the sense that even though I would often believe my motives to be pure, and almost always directed at the preservation of Justice, or Taldryan, the Brotherhood or my family etc... I am willing to cross the line to preserve those things. I won't be happy that I had to murder the puppy to save the girl, but I'll murder that damned puppy if it suits my ends. My ends just happen to be more selfless than is traditionally though of a Dark sided character. I think the struggle of being willing to do it, and yet being haunted by it makes for a good conflict in self, to the point where I don't even know if I'd say I was dark side or grey. All I can say for certain is I'm definitely not light :P

Dark, Light, Grey offer people still a big enough variety how to define their characters.

There can be Dark sided characters that would kill just for fun, others only do it if they want to achieve something. Both are Dark, but one is chaotic: killing for fun, would even kill puppies. The problem with chaotic characters is: They don't get along in a team. Put a group of chaotic dark sided people together and they will soon go at each other's throat. A lawful Dark sided person has a kind of code when killing people: would they kill puppies? Children? They usually have set up certain kind of rules when to not do this. They can work very good in teams. Accepting leadership or being a leader. Do Dark people see themselves as evil? Not neccessary. Did Vader think he was evil while he executed Palpatine's orders? No. He thought he would save the galaxy / that his deeds were the best for the galaxy. A neutral Dark sided person is between those alignments. He may spare puppies one day, but could also one day decide to kill his leader if he believes to be restrained too much by that leadership.

There are nice explanations and descriptions about the alignments on this webpage: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alignment_(Dungeons_%26_Dragons) It also includes Good (Light), Neutral (Grey)

It may help you understand what your character really is like. Grey? Light? Dark? Chaotic, Lawful or Neutral?

There are also some surveys out there to help you find your character's alignment. And just a hint: Most people in real life are: True Neutral. :D

P.S. Vader was Lawful Evil ;)