Awesome info

DENIED

Back to your hole, Wee Baby BubbaX! No stamp for you!

delivery of moldy bamboo stalks successfully delivered to panda

That's for not giving our redneck Bubba his stamp. He earned it by not licking the chalkboard for one week straight.

gives lollipop to Bubba

There ya go. Big meany panda won't hurt you no more.

Great update Scooby Doobie Aabsdu

APPROVED

AGREEEEEEEEEEEEED.

So... more rules created that can be completely ignored at the whims of the Grand Master? Genius.

I inserted the probation status exceptions to avoid absolutes. We want to give weight to probation but not hold back a truly exceptional member. Essentially, a clan on probation can still do the same stuff but with GM oversight. The clan is still the one putting forth ideas, but during probation should be spending the six months proving they deserve clan status.

Next time you DC people should not forget to inform people about your decisions.

Anything more we need to know that you might have forgotten?...

Anything more we need to know that you might have forgotten?

Yes: This GJW was a pre-vendetta to the main event: the GreatER Jedi War, staring in 3 weeks.

..... Tarax.... Die!

Thanks for all the information, Aabs. Great report!

I'm ready tarax

Aabs, I completely agree....you can't triple stamp a double stamp...not sure where all the negative energy is coming from....

When I hear words like probation and declanning, they serve to remind me that none of us come to this club for punitive measures. We all come here for fun. That should be our club's focus.

Macron, Your comment is a fair one, and I'm going to think a lot on that in the coming months. It's double edged, I think. When one is moving up the "totem pole of priveleges," extra perks like clan titles are designed as incentives to increase activity.

Conversely, when that activity isn't met the inclination is to slide back down the pole, which feels like a punitive measure (and is one, really). Thus, where one course incentivizes, another possible deincentivizes.

My personal philosophy since I came back to active status has been and continues to be, roughly speaking, not to get too serious. We're all here for fun Star Wars times, and Id hate for irritations to result in not being able to chat about Ep 7. So again, a very fair point which I am listening to.

Thank you, it's refreshing to know someone is listening up there.

I find myself in the odd position of agreeing with Macron again. ;) I've always thought that our attitude as a group when we see a unit struggle should be to see it as our collective problem as opposed to something that is just the failure of the unit in question.

I tend to agree with Slagar that when a unit struggles it is a Brotherhood problem. Unit pride is good, but there is still too much insularity imo. Helping other units and unit transfers shouldn't be met with the stigma it is in some corners of the club.

On the flip side, the policy has merit. Clan status has to mean something, there are unit struggling to clan or re-clan. Member retention is important. Clanhood should not be something that is taken for granted.

"Clan status has to mean something, ..." So? There had been a time when only Clans existed. There was no merit tied to being a Clan. Then someone had the idea to add in possible declanning to force people to be more active or the clan status would be taken away from you as a punishment.

Was this incentive successful? Has it brought us more activity or frustration / fear among people? I can't tell as I can't speak for everyone. But I personally find it frustrating, too much like a punishment, contra-productive as THIS has become the ONLY kind of request for activities: Please be active, or we get declanned! Do something!

Instead of: Be active, because our activities are fun and you will enjoy it!

In a "weaker" clan you are forced, driven by fear of declanning on a daily base, trying to get people active. Is this a good base for people to think of good reasons to join activities?

Shouldn't rather the activities be easy to understand and FUN to do? I can shout all day at people: DO THIS FLASH GAME! SO WE DON'T GET DECLANNED! But if the flash game is utterly boring.. it is still in vain.

Yea. Helping out each other, and other units shouldn't be something that's special/a big deal. It should be no different than holding the door for someone. We've done a good job of that, as a club, over the past few years, I think.

I think--and this is just my perspective on things so feel free to ignore or disagree--that while we are all hear for fun and to help one another, I think that when someone suggests something like de-clanning, it shouldn't be taken as a personal slight. Which is how it seems to be now. It should be taken for exactly what you're saying you want; "Help from other units/advice."

Companies restructure all the time. Sometimes it's re-branding and finding a new image (Monty moving to Plag is the shining example of stepping into a situation that was a mess and brought things together to pull off something that few other units had managed to do in years). It happens with empires in history, too. Most empires collapse when they over-stretch and overextend. Just like how in risk it's impossible to hold Europe AND Asia (Hitler never played risk as a kid, you see).

To me, I really do not understand the stigma against wanting to downsize, re-organize, and then simultaneously build upwards with a strong foundation instead of trying to expand outward in five directions at once. Instead of struggling against a member cap where you're begging members to sign into the website (which, again, isn't really an answer to the core concept of "active members" when looking at what makes up a Clan vs a House).

But, it's easy for me to say this. Arcona has never once been anywhere close to probation and I've never seen our roster (even with ongoing AWOLS) dip below 60 members. So, it's very hard for me to speak from personal experience, but I can certainly try and empathize and put myself in another units shoes.

I will say, I had to go and dig up e-mails from Arcona's de-clanning. I was a BTL at the time, and didn't really get what was going on. I was still in that naive state of "yay activity, pew pew" without much other responsibility. But when I look at the drafts, the proposals (and the counter proposal we had to do when Muz turned down our initial proposal) is actually kind of haunting. You can say what you want about names like Dash and Timeros and Wuntila (I know most of you have your opinions on my brethren Arconae) but those documents and e-mails are...amazing. Looking back, 4 years later, reminds me of where we were. De-clanning really put things into perspective for us. It made us come up with a long term-plan. It involved taking a clueless hyper-active BTL (Wally) and putting him in charge of a House without having any clue to what he was supposed to do five months prior to a Great Jedi War. It involved closing teams, re-organizing who was in each team, and coming up with a long-term plan for how to endure.

And for anything else negative anyone wants to say about Arcona's direction in the past few years, we have endured. We've been here. And I've extended myself personally whenever I can. Ask Liam, or Xen. So, you can roll your eyes at my words. Or, you can hear them, digest them, and use them, hopefully, to figure out what you can do going forward to make your respective unit better. I know we still have a lot to do as well. We're always looking to get better. And part of that, yes, is helping those around us.

What I've learned from Muz over the years, and have tried to take most to heart is:

Depth - the unit is not dependent on any one, two, or three members. The trick to Clanning, I think, is having backup plans for if a leader leaves, gets busy, or has to step down. It's about creating an environment where leaders both new and veteran can have a chance to succeed (and fail. There is nothing wrong with failing, sometimes it's more important, even.)

It's not about flash-activity. Its a long-game. Endurance. It's about gameplanning and looking ahead and having a contingency plan. It involes figuring out ways to work through issues with your fellow members and to try and fix something rather than cast them away to the curb.

Again, the only thing I can speak from is my personal experience. I'm not calling anyone out or trying to pick any philosophical debates. Hopefully this knowledge helps other units that may or may not be struggling. My door has always been open, I'm easy to get in touch with, and Mal, Xen, Viv, Liam, Scion, and Rian know (and a few of us do talk regularly) that my advice is free and I'll help however I can in the interest of the Dark Jedi Brotherhoods general health.

End rant, feel free to pick it part.

-W

I dunno it is kinda odd that they are now "out of probation" but are at 38 members... It should be the quality of membership over being at "40". Just having people come back to save the day just in the nick of time, seems futile. Especially that since a house has to work twice as hard to get members.

If you read the report you'd have seen that we ended our probation in November but dropped below 40 after that and as such are on probation again... as idiotic as the whole policy may be...

So, since I haven't seen much discussion on the topic, we're all clear on everything in the DENIED section then? I won't need to deny anything?

Okay.. please proceed with the discussion on value of the Clan carrot on a stick.

Although I agree with the company restructuring analogy, as I've often made the same to people myself, since I personally prefer Indy Houses as I find Clans have more leadership positions than necessary, the only catch with that analogy is that the same company structures don't actually work for everyone- in the end, businesses have to build their structures around the employees they have, due to the fact one size won't fit all, which is why I've always wanted to see more flexibility and letting Independent Units develop their organisational structure around what their members require, whether it be more leaders, or less leaders, and to move away from viewing a Clan as "better" than a House, but rather to see both as freely interchangeable organisational structures that just are tailored to the particular needs of the members in that particular Independent Unit.

One solution would be allowing Houseless Clans... of course that has been shut down numerous times... no idea why.

One solution would be allowing Houseless Clans...

"What's in a name? That which we call a clan By any other name would smell as sweaty."

:P

In the case of the DB? A lot is in a name.

Lots of excellent points.

My opinion, offers of clanning or declanning does get activity.

When I came back, I couldn't understand why the clans were gone, yet the names did. Thanks to a many individuals, I understood.

Now when we reclanned, I was ecstatic.

Everytime we get down to the "40" threshold, it makes me nervous. I am not in a position of power, but just ask Vivackus, Arden, Callus, and past leaders how fast their emails fill up with my alerts, questions, and sometimes suggestions.

Being a clan, whether a club or character trait, is personal to me. It is a "family" to me. This is just as much part of my real life as are my family.

That makes me personally want to do something to protect my family here.

So is it an "uh oh" or hinderence as suggested about declanning? Maybe, but I see it as an opportunity to better ourselves and find more ways to get activity and participation from old and newer members. Sometimes it does get stagnant. That's why there are shakeups and movements.

It also brings in newer ideas and perspectives.

Just like video games. If they ain't updated regularly, it gets boring and then loses customers. I.e. Ultima Online and World of Warcraft are two prime examples of constant changing. Star Wars Galaxies is example of failure to change. The prior two are still in business, not so much for last one.

Just thought I'd add my two cents worth. I can hear others in background "shut the Chiss up".

" in the end, businesses have to build their structures around the employees they have, due to the fact one size won't fit all, which is why I've always wanted to see more flexibility and letting Independent Units develop their organisational structure around what their members require, whether it be more leaders, or less leaders, and to move away from viewing a Clan as "better" than a House, but rather to see both as freely interchangeable organisational structures that just are tailored to the particular needs of the members in that particular Independent Unit."

Yes. Exactly. So, why put yourself through all the stress of trying to be a Clan (and support all those leaders?) and why not just de-clan? It makes everything easier. It gives you something to work towards instead of something to struggle to tread water so it doesn't go away*.

For me, I need my Summit of 12. You can call it access, but I call having 24/7 coverage/flexibility with my leadership team the centerpiece and most important reason for my success with the unit. Again, that's what works for me though, I understand completely that won't work for everyone else.

The only difference I see between a Clan and a House right now, benefit wise, is Clan Titles? So, maybe that's something to look into. It depends on how the DC wants to treat the whole thing.

Yea, Evant, I read that part of the report. You will be seeing a lot of me ;).

excessive*

There's more than clan titles as a difference. There's also the fact that the way the system works right now, clans get twice the number of new joins, which is also stupid and punishing independent houses instead of helping them.

The way I see it, prior to the total declanning, if a Clan became too inactive, it was disbanded (or merged in the case of CEK and CSK). As of right now, if a Clan becomes too inactive, it first gets dropped to a House, then disbanded. Honestly, the only real differences are the Clan Title and some structuring.

From what I can see, this change only validates the earning of Clan Titles. Now I don't know the exact process but as far as I've scene, this distinction can only be awarded once in a while. After all, it's a pretty big deal to get one. Now, there is just one more requirement, you have to be the best out of no fewer than 40 people for an extended period of time. Let's face it, graduating top of a class of a few hundred is far less impressive than graduating at the top of a class numbering in the thousands.

So to paraphrase, this isn't a punishment, this is another requirement for earning a Clan Title. Declanning isn't really a punishment, it's just a big warning that the clan is closer to being disbanded with a sensible structure change.

I agree with Malik. The houses and clans should be receiving the same number of random new joins.

Alright. So let's propose balancing out that element of it. I'm sure between the Unit heads, and the DC/DSummit, we could discuss ways or options to balance things out and make everyone a bit more happy--since again, this is all supposed to be for fun :).

I'm also aware of the new join algorithm, but I still think the majority of our club is based around recruits, which comes easier with an active culture. Obviously there are plenty of cases to argue against that as well, but again it's something we should totally look into seeing what options are available. However, it's something, i think, that will reside with the GM/DGM. As a unit leader, I have no problem engaging in these discussions, and I'm sure my peers would be on board as well :)

"The Dark Council will not impose any specific requirements for a Clan title except the general rules contained herein. The specific requirements are to be determined by the Clan leadership or their designees subject to these policies"
The only ones who can set or change requirements for earning a clan title is the clan giving it out.

The discussion of balancing out new join assignments have been had many times Wally, it has always been slapped down.

Any and all proposals/ideas around fixing many of the issues relating to having a two-tier system (Clans and Independent Houses) have been slapped down by Muz. So yeah, good luck with those "discussions" :P

Perhaps we've reached the comment point where it's best to move the discussion to a Discourse forum where people can reply and quote more efficiently. And edit.

I think the conclusion of the Vendettas and subsequent time and effort required by everyone to participate and run them....will now offer and opportunity to look at a host of club policies, rules, mechanics, ect.

I'd like to finish grading the GJW first and then the DC and everyone can sit down and discuss issues and potential solutions. I think a lot of us can avoid being rigid in our thought and finding new ways to do things. After grading :p

Long comment coming through. sorry, all.

The point behind the declanning was the fact (yes, facts, as defined by every metric we had, from number of active members to site hits to number of new joins) that the DB was in a pretty major slump. When we did the declanning, we debated the idea of having houseless clans versus indy houses. The houseless clans idea was one that made everyone feel better, but had no real 'carrot' as someone earlier in this thread said. The potential to reclan (and earn the rights and perks associated with it) has driven Arcona and several other units to where they are today. The downside of that is that it made everyone feel like we were being punished. We had to acknowledge that where we were simply wasn't sustainable. I don't like that. You don't like that. Nobody likes seeing that what we were doing wasn't working. You have to acknowledge it, and move forward. But you can not solve a problem with the same thinking that caused it.

It wasn't a popular decision. It's not one that I wanted to have to make. And here, several years later, people are still complaining about it. But, comparing where we were to where we are, and recognizing how bad things could have gotten/were getting, I would absolutely make the same exact choice again. The fact that we are here to have this discussion, with new voices and old pitching in, is proof that it worked.

The Brotherhood is all about fun. Members have fun, they game/write/chat with old friends, make new ones, and get to play in this really fun sandbox. But there do have to be some rules to keep order...to keep things together, to keep them from falling apart. Rules aren't fun, and enforcing them is substantially less so...but that's the deal when you step up into leadership. You sacrifice a fair bit of the fun that you personally have so that you can make fun things for the rest of the members, to keep things fair, to keep our doors open, to keep the club growing. It's a sacrifice, the dues we pay forward for the fun we had as members. It's often thankless, obnoxious work. You get yelled at a lot. (Just look at the thread here) But it is necessary.

Most people here have seen little rules and complained about the bureaucracy of it all. I can appreciate it. I really really hate having to play rules lawyer all the bloody time. I really really hate having to tell people no. But sometimes it does need to be said. Sometimes the old rules need to change, because people are abusing them, or people are abusing other people, or whatever. We just recently saw rules having to be changed in the middle of the war because of people doing scammy sorts of things in gaming. I really hate that, and if we could, we'd rather bust people out for breaking the spirit of the rules instead of having to constantly rewrite them because people are seeking loopholes or whatnot. That's not how it works, unfortunately.

And to those who are spinning the whole 'slapped down' thing like I don't even consider other options... well. You're not my fans, and that's fine. That is what happens when you have to get told no enough times. But the truth of the matter is that I have explained my reasons in depth for why policies were set the way that they were. People often took that as a 'slapping down', but it really isn't, as I have explained to each of you during those times. I invited people to find other ways to solve the problems. I have yet to see a solution submitted that even addresses the problem...or even acknowledges that there was a problem aside from wanting perks back. Rather than do the hard work, and try to fix things, it is far easier to grandstand on comments sections or on IRC and complain about things. Step up, recognize what is wrong, and work with us to try to fix it, instead. But realize that you can't solve problems with the same thinking that caused them.

TL;DR I'll take the brotherhood thriving over personal popularity every day of the week. That is the job.

Thanks for reading. Enjoy what's left of the holiday weekend.

--Muz

well said

so much lulz

Lack of popularity often stems from lack of thriving. If anything, it's the persistent stagnation and shitty decisions that lead to one's lack of popularity.

Juuuuust sayin'.

"You sacrifice a fair bit of the fun that you personally have so that you can make fun things for the rest of the members, to keep things fair, to keep our doors open, to keep the club growing. It's a sacrifice, the dues we pay forward for the fun we had as members. It's often thankless, obnoxious work. You get yelled at a lot. (Just look at the thread here) But it is necessary."

Can I get this as a motivation poster with a cat-picture? QFT.

There you go, Wally, close enough :P

It's easy enough for folks not facing punitive measures to agree that they are fine, no offense. Quite frankly de-clanning is demoralizing for the unit in question. It is the exact opposite of what should be done with a struggling unit- they should be supported, not punished. This is a volunteer club and real-life models of negative reinforcement do not work nor do they encourage anyone in my mind. If a unit is struggling, then offer them support. Do something concrete to help them, like allow them to trim their leadership, liaison with other successful groups to develop good strategies, offer them a mentor. Those are positive solutions. In my personal opinion we should return to the scenario where all the Clouses become Clans again, including Odan-Urr. Some positive reinforcement works wonders and it should be tried. Leaders are tired of the constant struggle to stay above 40 in my opinion- it takes away from the real business of leadership, which is helping your charges enjoy the club. Also, no offense, there is no need to sacrifice anything to be fair. It can be done in a positive manner that brings us together as comrades, instead of dividing us. Let's all also remember that this is a club, not Real Life. People take things way too seriously when they dip into the punitive model. We should remember why we are all here, to have fun and move forward in that manner accordingly.

@Marick I fully agree actually. Although I'll probably get eggs thrown at me for saying this in public, I've been keen on seeing CNS voluntarily de-clan for a long time, so that energy can be focused on seeing the members that the Clan does have enjoy things, rather than energy being spent just trying to find 40 people, any people, whichever people, old people, new people, resurrected and floating in tanks of formaldehyde people, purely to make up the numbers - which then becomes its own vicious self-defeating circle.

It's, again, why I'd prefer to see Clans and Indy Houses become more readily interchangeable. In the end, when being a Clan is treated as a kind of "award", it inevitably means the reverse gets viewed as a "downgrade". Personally, though, I don't like to view it as negative, I prefer to view it as streamlining, as getting rid of the chaff, and a positive step - but that message always gets lost due to all the other stuff an Independent Unit loses if it does that, whether titles, planets, ships, whatever. All those are awards, and rightly so, and should be earned, whereas how many positions a unit fields it an administrative question, which I've always felt should be addressed on its own pros/cons.

TL;DR Indy Houses and Clans are trying to kill two birds with one stone, and muddling two separate issues into one, whereas more flexibility would make it much easier to deal with separate problems instead of trying to find one solution to fix both at the same time.

"It's easy enough for folks not facing punitive measures to agree that they are fine, no offense. Quite frankly de-clanning is demoralizing for the unit in question."

Life is about perspective, Mac, and so is this for-fun club. It's only demoralizing if you let it be. Losing a year long conflict at the finish line by 1 point (literally) is demoralizing. Having to be in charge when it happens? Even more so. As leaders, though, it's our responsibility to handle these types of situations. It is what you make of it. If tantrum and stomp your feet then the rest of your members/followers will want to do the same. Again, it's all perspective.

I think we're all on the same page, regardless. We will have to see what the DC decides to do going forward, and I think we can trail this discussion off this thread now and continue it elsewhere (on the forums, as suggested).

Also, Solari, I love you <3

" It's only demoralizing if you let it be"

That is ignorant - you could as well say: "I am sorry if your dog died, but it is only sad if you allow yourself to be sad." - We are not robots. With feelings and emotions. And the declanning / clanning thing IS demoralizing; it has cause good people to step down, it has grinded down good people until they got fed up with this system and left the DJB in the worst case.

Way to go for a "fun" place.

And give a link to the discourse place where we can continue this.

With the use the forums get, taking this discussion there seems like a good way to just shut it down...

Losing by 1 pt? Pfft...

Try losing by a Flash pinball game :P

But yeah, flash games aside, what Sildrin said. Different strokes for different folks, and all that. Some people will always take things worse, and no amount of pep talk will address that, which- yet again- brings me back to the question of why admin structures are tied into the rewards for the normal folks, rather than the two being dealt with independently of each other. Even a thriving business might see benefits in cutting managers; vice versa, a struggling business might see a benefit in having more managers... all depends on the business, the people, yadda, yadda, etcetera.

Also, discourse don't work on all cellphones. Some wouldn't be able to weigh in this discussion

I've opened a Discourse thread to continue the conversation. I'm genuinely not trying to kill the conversation; I just find 50+ unorganized news page comments difficult to keep up with. I only copied Muz's comment, but feel free to put recent posts in there to get things updated. Thank you, everyone!

APPROVED

You're a weird dude, Monty.

My assumption is that Monty is drinking, especially when he uses all caps.

Yacks, agreed/APPROVED. Sarin, terrible assumption given my current weekend situation...